Dear Paul,
Here’s my take on the functionality of the Notes Module in BS7A3
1) While I think that BS7 is moving in the right direction with the notes module I think you have not yet adequately addressed the problem of how to get the notes OUT of biblioscape. Imagine this very common scenario: I have spent the last six months researching an article and have compiled hundreds of notes in biblioscape, some ideas, some quotes from sources, some literature reviews, etc. The next thing I need to do is to start working with the notes, reading through them, sorting them it to different topical headings, thinking about a logical structure for the article, adding text, ect. At this point I no longer want to be working in biblioscape. I want (need) to be able to use a search and/or category to generate a list of notes that I want to work with, then export those notes to a word processing program or outlining program (I use Brainstorm at this point, but it would be easy to export to Word and then again to Brainstorm.) What I am asking for is a way to create a text file of a list of notes without any extra clutter, headings, ect. It appears that the new <export> wizard is supposed to perform this function, but so far I haven’t been able to get it to produce anything like what I am talking about.
Ideamason’s approach to this problem is to integrate the outlining stage of the writing process with note taking and bibliographic software, thus making the need to export notes unnecessary. I think it would be a mistake to follow this route. What they seem to have achieved is a weak bibliographic program coupled to an adequate note taking program coupled to a weak outlining program. What you appear to be on the verge of achieving is an extremely strong bibliographic program integrated with a strong note taking program, there are already good outlining programs that can be had for a reasonable cost, and I suspect they will always do their job better than a program that tries to do everything.
2) The next problem may be more difficult to fix. As it stands now, the note field can store images, but those images cannot be exported out of the notes. For example, I have sections of pdf files that I have copied into my notes. I cannot, however, copy and paste those images out of my notes into any other application. Another example is the note titled “favorite author” in the sample database. It has a small image of the author. Again, this image cannot be copied from the note and pasted into another application. This seems like an issue that should be addressed in future releases. I realize you can link to an external file, but that seems like an inelegant solution to the problem in the long term.
These are my thoughts. I am very impressed with the evolution of the program.
Thanks,
Matt
Composition features
Two points about this discussion:
1. If B7 intends to be an information manager (which I believe it does and can), then it must offer complete tools to the concept and development of research papers (from an article to a thesis). As I wrote in a previous post, commenting German information manager softwares and how people in Germany work with them, I said that we go to Word only at the very last phase of writing, or rather, formatting. So, it would be very disappointing if Biblioscape limited its composition tab features to an outline of categorized notes.
Biblioscape IS the right place to "play" with the notes, to re-order them, and most important, to add linking sections between blocks of notes, etc. If I concentrate all my concept activities to the B7 environment, it's much easier to retrieve connections betweens notes/references, an operation which I probably won't try if I am already working with Word (with all respect, just a good type machine), easily create a new task, check and create other piece of information (sometimes to be reused later or in another project), record insights that otherwise would be lost. Really, this has to be done in Biblioscape, not in another program (so that the benefits of tools like "links", for example, can be maximized). The more data/operations we concentrate in one software, the better. An information manager software COMBINES and INTEGRATES powerful reference management AND creative writing, otherwise we forget the information manager discussion and talk about a reference manager with some extra good note-taking features. That would be a disappointing step back.
2. How these "composition" results will be exported to a text editor is a central issue and B7 will have to offer a good solution. Not only to export "composition outlines" (which we have not yet seen), but eventually category trees. Since the composition feature is still under development, I think there is not much more to do than to give the suggestion and wait for the next alpha release.
Regards, Milene
>The more data/operations we
>The more data/operations we concentrate in one software, the better. An information manager software COMBINES and INTEGRATES powerful reference management AND creative writing, otherwise we forget the information manager discussion and talk about a reference manager with some extra good note-taking features. That would be a disappointing step back.
I"ll buy that as a long term goal. In the short term, I don't see biblioscape coming anywhere near the functionality of the outlining programs such as Notemap and Brainstorm which allow the user to quickly move and organize large amounts of information into different configurations. This may simply refect different writing methodologies, styles, or professional needs. In the end, I think we agree on my main point: the note taking module in biblioscape will only be an effective tool when it allows the user to seamlessly export notes into a wordprocessing program (at whatever stage the individual wants to do that.)
Composition features
Hi Matt,
You brought an important issue to discussion, that is, how far will Biblioscape support academic writing? Your concern - and mine, too- about exporting notes is a legitimate one, let's see how B7 will work this out.
I know Notemap, but not Brainstorm, could you send a link to its website? Thanks.
Anyway, I believe B7 (or perhaps B8...) should offer more than a flexible outline like Notemap. I keep all my comments about concentrating as much functions as possible in one software, we explore search/linking/retrieval functions to its maximum. I'm sure we agree on this point, too, after all we expect the "ideal solution" to our research, right?
I would like to know at what stage you'd find convenient to move to the word processor. For instance, do you think that "linking paragraphs" should be written in Word? If we're outlining the notes in Biblioscape, I think it's essential to insert milestones and connections/comments between them. These are not properly notes, but pieces of information which only make sense in the composition process. It would be nice to share ideas and experiences about it.
Regards, Milene
Milene,I am far from an
Milene,
I am far from an expert on these issues and if I was satisfied with my writing process I would not be so anxious to see where biblioscape is headed.
>I know Notemap, but not Brainstorm, could you send a link to its website? Thanks.
http://www.brainstormsw.com/ It is a funny program, both simple and powerful. It is very different from Notemap, not exactly an outliner. The best way to get a sense of the program is to go to the user forum from their home page and watch the screencasts. By the way, this would be a great thing for Paul to do for biblioscape. I've been using the program everyday for five years and I don't think I have come close to maximizing its potential. Like many of these information programs, there is a hardcore group of cultish users who like to chat about what it can do and worry endlessly about its shortcomings... oops I guess we now fall into that category.
>I would like to know at what stage you'd find convenient to move to the word processor. For instance, do you think that "linking paragraphs" should be written in Word? If we're outlining the notes in Biblioscape, I think it's essential to insert milestones and connections/comments between them. These are not properly notes, but pieces of information which only make sense in the composition process. It would be nice to share ideas and experiences about it.
Frankly, my writing process has been pretty damn disfunctional, in large part because I don't have a clear enough sense of my large claims, arguments, sometimes even topic... Yes, it's a dissertation, history. What I like about Brainstorm, and to a lesser degree Notemap, is that I can throw a whole lot of information into the program and then sort through it, figure out the big themes, create headings, add ideas as they occur to me and generally create a semblance of order out of my truly chaotic research process. Then send it all to Word and start to write.
Here's my fear about the quest for one "ideal solution." In my recent trowling of the web for programs to write my dissertation for me :) I have been really overwhelmed by number of really talented and creative programers like Paul making these program, soliciting advice from their users, helping them trouble shoot the inevitable problems. There is something organic and wonderful about this process (something I never thought I would say about computers) and I think they are producing really incredible products. I worry that the "ideal" program, that tries to do everything well, would end up stifling this process. Imagine you are trying to improve your outliner, but every change you make has to be coordinated with many different components of the program. My thinking on this, and I suspect it is not the German model, is that individual programs will always be more innovative and powerful. The critical thing is to make sure that each program makes it easy to get information in and out. What I love about biblioscape is that by putting temporary citation in my material the link to my references is maintained from program to program, which is so essential to me. This is my thinking today anyway... I would be curious to here what paul's thinking on this is.
I'd love to know more about how you and others work.
best,
Matt
Researching and writing with the computer
Hello Matt,
sorry for taking so long to answer your message. I came back from vacation only this week, and the forum had some problems the past few days. I'm writing a dissertation in history, too. My field is medieval history, what about you?
Well, about working with the computer, let me tell you about my experience with the "German model", as you named it. The tendency is to concentrate the bibliography, note-taking, text concept and writing (to a certain stage, I'll explain) in one program. Perhaps there are best single softwares for each module, but I see more advantages in having them together.
I do note-taking from secondary bibliography as well from primary sources in the same program (often I tabulate data from the sources in other databases, but as soon as I have a result from the data analysis I write it as a note in the information manager program).
I use keywords and categories for different purposes. I always insert at least five classes of keywords for non-theoretical notes: period, event, place, person/group, source/genre. For methodological discussions I have at least: "historical period", "field" (law, economics, feudalism, etc.) "name of the debatte". This is what I call "stable index". No matter what research I do, how long after I've inserted data, I can retrieve it. I have dynamic queries (the old blue folders) with combination of keywords, works fine, it is a manageable amount of records. Problem: field length, you can't insert many keywords, but you shouldn't anyway. Perhaps it would be the case of converting the keywords to categories, but with more than 4000 references, I'll keep this model for the moment. The idea of having a "stable index" is important, each one decides how it will be more comfortable. (I prefer keywords with the dynamic folders)
For notes which are ideas, insights, independent from a specific text, I assign consistent keywords (just like I did for the references), so that I can retrieve it later. Eventually they are linked to other notes or references.
Categories are more "fluid". One category is "paper". Then I have child categories. Each child category refers to a text I write (for periodical, congress, MPhil diss., etc and now PhD thesis). I think this is very useful, because you can recover thematic bibliographies which you have already elaborated easily. I use to categorize in this case only reference records, not notes (they are already linked to each single record). Child categories allow you to organize the references further in chapters/parts/themes. In the concept phase, it helps you to organize the reading and note-taking.
Categories are a fundamental tool to draw the concept text/outline. Then I work with thematic categories, which are much more specific and subject to quick change than the general keywords (the "stable index" I mentioned above). Here I work with notes rather than with references. I have categories for "methodology", "historiographical debates", "source interpretation", "quotations", etc, etc. Often one note is assigned to more than one category. While I organize this mess I have insights (which I immediatelly write down/ link), I create tasks (I have to check a source, a text, research one aspect deeper, etc.), I link records between them.
Until this stage I think we should work with one single program, during outlining we often have to retrieve information, create tasks, write down ideas which have to be in the same database, so that they can be re-used later. More, if you work always (or almost always) in the same environment, you have more chances to see connections among pieces of information, from which you would loose contact if you'd move to another program (this is my humble opinion, only my experience).
Then it comes to one step after outlining/grouping notes, the composition. I do it in the information manager software. How? After having a group of notes together (with quotations, paraphrases, ideas, comments, etc.), I insert milestones and linking paragraphs and categorize then in chapters/sections, I re-order them, etc.. I don't know how B7 will handle this, the composition module in B7A3 is not working (at least in my computer). I hope I'll be able to do this in B7. Only then I move to Word (at this stage notes are in sequence, already with linking paragraphs). Bibliography is ready, because they contain temporary citations. Then come the last adjustments (typo, style, etc.), but most of the writing has been done before. Personally I dislike Word. It's a powerful writing machine, that's all. I don't think it's an inviting enviroment for creative/ intellectual work. But again, my personal opinion. Questions for B7: how are we going to export all these notes? will there be a good way to visualize large amount of notes?
I can elaborate the steps in more detail, if you - or others - are interested. Of course researching and writing is an idiosyncratic process, but it has worked for me so far. Looking forward to see improvements in B7.
Best,
Milene.
Milene,I wish I had met you
Milene,
I wish I had met you when I was starting my dissertation instead of finishing it. I am realizing that after toiling for a number of years at my dissertation (l'll leave the number of years vague) my research methods are significantly less sophisticated than they should be. I have organized my research mostly using folders in biblioscape were I throw all the references that I think will purtain to a given chapter of the dissertation with the notes, mostly quotes, in the notes field of the reference. As the dissertation has evolved I have periodically reorganized the folder structure. I have done something similar with ideas less tied to a single source in the Notes module, again, organizing them according the chapter I think the idea relates to. As you know, however, this is a very limited way to organize information. Keywords are a note taking discipline that I have not established and I am paying for it. I also have not been disciplined enough about writing why I think a particular quote is important when copying it into my notes, sure that it will be obvious when I return to it. These are basically "user" problems, not problems with the software I have been using.
I, like you, have found that Word is simply not a powerful enough tool for drafting papers and biblioscape 6 is really not any help in this regard. What I have found, however, is that there are some incredibly nimble programs for gathering information, displaying it in an outline form, and reorganizing it using key strokes. (Basically one and two pane outliners.) The wonderful thing about biblioscape is that I can tag all my data with a temporary citation so at least that information travels where ever the data travels in an outline.
It's not that I don't agree with you that it would be wonderful to have all that functionality connected to all the links embedded in my database program, but I don't think it would be easy to achieve that same nimbleness that these outliner programs have. It sounds like Paul is working towards something that will probably satisfy both of us. Even if the outlining features in biblioscape 7 are not terribly nimble (I'm stuck on that word, sorry) they will certainly facilitate the export of data to other programs that may be more powerful for drafting. We'll see.
My concern now is about timing. I am at a point where I need to do a significant overhaul of my note taking organization and I don't want to do it in BS 6. So, I've been wasting too much time watching this forum, waiting with bated breath for news....
I've enjoyed reading about your research methods. I have copied them into a note and will return to them again when I start trying to fix my note taking scheme.
best wishes,
matt
Matt,I'm glad I could help
Matt,
I'm glad I could help somehow. We can discuss more about the subject, if you'd like. It's a pity, but my research method can't be applied to B6, and I don't know if you have time to wait for the official release of B7 (then it would work). For the time being, I understand that you have to use more than one software at the same time.
About the keywords, they really make the difference. I spent a long time elaborating a first list of keywords, which changed - not much - with time. Just another tip: I suggest a decimal system of keywords, so that you can find them easily (softwares organize them alphabetically, so it's not wise to write only words, you'll have a hard time finding them). Example: historical period is 100 (101 is Greece (VIII-VI BC), 102_Greece_V, etc.), person/group is 400 (425_EarlyCarolingians, 441_Ottonians, 473_Luther, etc, etc.).
I wish you all the success with your dissertation.
Best, Milene
Milene, Thank you for
Milene, Thank you for sharing your experience. Categories module will be the ideal tool for you. It will be polished to support faceted classification. For example, let user select multiple categories on the right pane and build query on the fly. The outline module will not be in initial 7.0 release. We will try to add it gradually in 7.x releases. Then polish it in version 8. Version 7 will get the fundamentals right. Future releases will build upon it. Thanks.
Paul, I'm glad to hear about
Paul, I'm glad to hear about your plans, that's why I trust Biblioscape. We can discuss more about information managers and how they can support researching and writing process. I'm no expert but I face pratical problems everyday. We can always learn from one another's experience.
Regards, Milene
Milene, Thanks for
Milene,
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting and sounds close to my ideal preferred workflow. So, what software are you using now? Does not sound like you are using Biblioscape. You mentioned several programs before… And if you are using something else, why are you using Biblioscape and what for? What are you unsatisfied with in regard to your current primary tool?
You promised more to the desirous. I am curious…
Hi Anna,I was waiting for
Hi Anna,
I was waiting for this question: "why does she insists on Biblioscape?". I'm currently using two softwares: Biblioscape 6 and Citavi (only German version). I keep all my references updated in B6 (waiting for B7). Citavi, which has the tools for the worflow I explained before, has all references (like B6) + notes + tasks.
If I compare B6 with Citavi (or VisualComposer, also only German), Biblioscape looses, because they are information managers (tools from reference management until composition of papers/diss.). I use my B6 database in Bibliopalm, it's helpful.
B7 will be a true competitor in this class of software and may do a good job, because it is more flexible, customizable, has more powerful search possibilities (Biblioscape is "the" seach winner, no comparison). Not only that, I've been working with B7 (A2 and A3) since January, and I can do everything faster with B7, the same functions available in other programs are "easier" in B7. I'm no computing expert, I don't know anything about programming, languages, software architecture, so I can't put it in technical terms, but Biblioscape is doubtless more comfortable to work with, the other softwares (including the one I work with) are far more "rigid", there are always more steps (specially with the mouse) to do the same task (this is an objective assessment) and they don't adapt to the user, the user must adapt to them. Biblioscape has a better "screen", too, it means, I control, I can see more information at the same time (I don't know if I've made myself clear at this point).
In short, B7 is at least as much powerful as other information managers, but easier to work with. For functions such as linking between records and search possibilities, B7 surely wins. Integration between modules is better, too. I want to see more about the new categories module and composition functions before giving my opinion about them.
Well, back to your question: why Biblioscape? In my opinion, Biblioscape has the best Reference management among the softwares I know, very good to work with. I follow its career since B5 has been released and decided to give it a chance, just thought they were in the right way, that's why I've been keeping two bibliography databases!
I wrote an article with B7 (A2). It was a short text, 14 pages and a limited bibliography (about 25 references) and not many primary sources as well. It worked fine. I "adapted" composition functions, I created for instance a type note "linking paragraph", etc. Exporting to word was awkward, but it was an Alpha version, so I had low expectations. It's served to see the bugs, think about improvements.
About the workflow itself, which I've developed independent from Biblioscape, I'd be glad to talk more about it. What would interest you most? And how have you been using the computer to help your research?
Best, Milene
Hi Anna,I was waiting for
sorry, double post
I played with BrainStorm
I played with BrainStorm before. To me, each BrainStorm file is a Word document with text in outline format. It is a unique program. Back in the 640x400 days, the desing is very valuable. But I prefer to see all the outlines on the left in full. That is why it is so hard to desing a notes manager. Everyone works in different ways, in different fields with different needs, and their database size is very different. I understand your needs. You don't want structure at first. You want it at later stage. I work in this way too. I think most people work in this way. We will try to find more ways to get the information out. I agree with you that a single program should not try to do too much. We will keep improving in 7.x releases. It may take another one or two major releases to get the job done right. Thanks.
Milene,I am far from an
sorry, a double post
1. In B7A3, we added a
1. In B7A3, we added a "Composition" tab in notes module. We want to at least combine all the notes in current view into the composition tab in a strcutured way. User can then shoot or paste it to Word or WP. Will this be a good way to do it? Do you have other approaches in mind? I played with IdeaMason 3 too. I agree with you that most users want to do the final writing in Word. Biblioscape notes folder is the default outlining view. If an user wants to re-use notes and build different outlines, notes can be linked to a category. In the category window, user can organize all linked notes into an outline. So the same note can appear in different outlines. IdeaMason can do this too by building a different outline. We can do about the same thing. But our approaches are different. We are more into information organization.
2. The rich text editor in versioin 7 is weak. We will replace it in future release. For now, you can go to "Tools | Options" window "Format Manuscript" tab. Check the box "Format double byte language". When you start Biblioscape next time, a different rich text editor will be used. You may like that one which is based on MS WordPad.
Thank you for your valuable inputs.
Paul
Outlining
"............Biblioscape notes folder is the default outlining view. If an user wants to re-use notes and build different outlines, notes can be linked to a category. In the category window, user can organize all linked notes into an outline. So the same note can appear in different outlines. IdeaMason can do this too by building a different outline. We can do about the same thing. But our approaches are different. We are more into information organization..........."
I am not sure I understand this workflow. Can you please expand on this?
I have also been trying out IdeaMason and having seen it would like to join the voices who call for integration of outlining and note-export functions.
We will add features in this
We will add features in this area in 7.x releases. The basic idea is to let user build composition outlines using notes as building blocks. This won't be in initial 7.0 release.
matt>1. In B7A3, we added a
matt
>1. In B7A3, we added a "Composition" tab in notes module. We want to at least combine all the notes in current view into the composition tab in a strcutured way. User can then shoot or paste it to Word or WP. Will this be a good way to do it? Do you have other approaches in mind?
This sounds very promising to me. So far there seems to be no functionality in my "composition" tab so I can't really comment on how it will work.
>I played with IdeaMason 3 too. I agree with you that most users want to do the final writing in Word.
Yes, final writing, but for larger projects there intermediate brainstorming, organizing, and outlining, steps in which I want to be "playing" with my notes, moving them around, grouping them in different ways, adding pieces of linking text between them, etc. These are the tasks that I do not think biblioscape is designed to do, therefore the need to efficiently export "sets" of notes from biblioscape into a text file of some sort.
>Biblioscape notes folder is the default outlining view. If an user wants to re-use notes and build different outlines, notes can be linked to a category. In the category window, user can organize all linked notes into an outline.
Ok, I see this is nice improvement. The question, however, is how are we going to export this outline into a word processor so that we can turn it into a final product. It seems like a waste to go through the trouble of creating such an outline then have to copy and paste the contents of it one piece at a time into the word processor. Maybe this is the goal of the "composition" tab. If so, you are at least a step ahead of me. :)
>We are more into information organization.
I agree wholeheartedly. But there are two central problems to information organization -- how to get info in and how to get info out. You have done a fantastic job figuring out how to get information in and out of the reference module. To bring the notes module up to that level is going to take some time, understandably.
We will add the composition
We will add the composition feature in B7 beta release. In future 7.x releases, we will add more minor improvements. Thanks.